Deep Sea Diver
This week’s episode of the JHS Show was a little different, and by “a little different” I mean “the greatest episode we’ve ever done.”
I had the pleasure to interview Jessica Dobson from the band Deep Sea Diver, and hear a little more about their amazing new album that’s dropping today. I love interviewing people, I love hearing how musicians got into the industry, and I think Jessica is one of the best guitarists currently making music, so let’s just dive into the questions.
JOSH
So, are you from a musical family?
JESSICA
Yes, my dad to this day sings in a barbershop chorus. Sometimes it's a quartet. Sometimes it's an octet, whatever, but mostly it's in a chorus, and he does this annual Christmas show that's insane, every year. But he's always singing in headphones and harmonizing. And my mom also sings, and my dad plays guitar. He gave me my first guitar, a twelve string.
JOSH
What guitar did you grow up hearing?
JESSICA
You mean on records? Led Zeppelin. My parents had a good vinyl collection...Simon and Garfunkel, [because] that's how I learned how to like picking patterns and things like that. Of course, the Beatles. They had that. The Carpenters, I don't know. [There was] all kinds of stuff, but that was what I heard in my house, and then I explored outside of that.
JOSH
Can you remember music fully catching your attention?
JESSICA
Honestly, it was from a really early age. Like, my mom put me in piano [lessons] when I was five or six, and it was the moment that I started writing music. I remember going to my piano teacher and being like, “Hey, I wrote these songs. Do you want to hear them?” At the time, she was very curriculum-based and was like, “No, no, no, no, no. You do that on your own time.” And [she] wasn't really interested in that. And that was kind of the moment that my brain split off where it was like, “Oh, wait, I think I enjoy this more writing music than [following] really strict curriculum.” Although that taught me how to play music. So that's when I fell in love, when I got to hear back things that I would just make up.
JOSH
Do you remember the first song you ever wrote?
JESSICA
Yeah, it was a waltz, ‘cause I was learning “Ragtime”...I was learning a Scott Joplin song, so I was doing these little chromatic things on the piano and just pretending to be Scott Joplin. I learned a very easy version of some kind of “Ragtime” thing. And I showed my mom, and I got to write it out on sheet music and I felt proud.
JOSH
What was the first album you ever bought with your mother?
JESSICA
Okay. It was probably Brandy, and it was on cassette. The Boy Is Mine. Yeah, totally. And I think the first CD I ever bought was No Doubt, Tragic Kingdom.
JOSH
Favorite song?
JESSICA
“Spiderwebs”, probably.
JOSH
Tragic Kingdom. I remember getting that and I was a little afraid to let my friends know I liked it, that it was so good.
JESSICA
It's so good. That's how I learned how to step into being a performer, too, because of all those music videos. I had big mirrors in my bedroom when I was a kid, and I would jump off my bed with a guitar and pretend to be Gwen Stefani. I dunno, it was fun at the time. Just being a little kid, a little dork.
JOSH
Do you have a favorite band ever? (stops) Okay, top five, if that’s easier.
JESSICA
I would say Radiohead. Air (I love The Virgin Suicides record; it’s such a good soundtrack). Brian Eno. I learned so much from him. I mean, there's favorites for different reasons...I have favorite records, not favorite bands. I think that's what it is. Like when I'm looking at records, [my favorite] is Beck’s Sea Change. I can put that on any time of the day. I will say this, my all-time favorite artist or band is Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds. I learned the most from him and respect him very, very much.
JOSH
What are your formative records? What most plays into your guitar style?
JESSICA
So I started playing guitar when I was 11 between my cousin and a few older friends. I got a Cure record. The Smiths’ Meat Is Murder, and Romeo + Juliet and the Scream soundtrack. So, that's how I got into Nick Cave, which is so funny. Then the Romeo + Juliet soundtrack had Radiohead on it.
JOSH
Those are wildly different. Like, the Scream [album] I think has a Creed song.
JESSICA
Oh, I'm sure it does. So, I would sit in my bedroom and learn all of those records. There's a lot of jangly, Brit pop in my early days, and also some kind of Shoegaze-y stuff. And I don't know, I was kind of in rebellion...At the time in junior high, Jewel was the biggest artist and people would always ask me, “Hey, play Jewel songs.” I'd bring my guitar to school. [I’d say,] “No, but I know this [other] guitar song.”
JOSH
You mentioned Brit rock, so Radiohead, obviously. What about other bands, like Oasis?
JESSICA
I liked Oasis at the time. I listened to Echo and the Bunnymen. The Clash. I love that kind of sharp, shiny guitar playing on Telecasters and Jazzmasters and Jaguars and all that.
JOSH
You have a good bit of material now, new record coming and stuff. What's your writing process? How has it evolved? Like, what's it like?
JESSICA
I think it's gotten better. Typically, on my end, it’s a lot of just being curious, a lot of journaling...I think it was Brian Eno who said, “Don't ever let the pen get dry.” So, when I am actually writing every day, songs come a lot easier in terms of lyrics and parts and things like that. I feel like the best flow that I have is bringing at least some structure of an idea to the band. I have more of the arranger mindset, production and arrangement...[I like] bringing that and then letting the band be free with the song. But, yeah, typically, it's not like lyrics always come first, or they come [afterwards]. Sometimes I don't know what the song is even about until afterwards.
JOSH
So you like having something and then creating it while you're recording?
JESSICA
Yeah. I love being in the studio. It feels like a really safe place for me, and at the same time a scary place. And then [with] this last record, for the first time I co-produced and really stepped into that role and with my friend Andy Park. There was a really cool relationship. I feel like he was able to push me much farther. I knew my limitations, [that] in the studio I can go forever and never know when something's good. And I definitely needed a co-producer to put down the foot when stuff is bad or good.
JOSH
So talk about your background with playing for other artists, how that got started.
JESSICA
I played in garage rock punk bands in high school, and then I was a solo artist in my early twenties. Then kind of by chance, I started playing with Beck. I knew the music director and he was looking for a new band for the Modern Guilt tour cycle. I actually tried out completely thinking I wouldn't get it, ‘cause I was up against all these session musicians who are excellent, and I was confident that I could play guitar well, but I don't have those kinds of studio chops. But I don't think that’s what Beck was looking for, I guess, ‘cause he hired me. So that was my first foray into playing with other bands.
And that was crazy. I mean, I literally learned how to play guitar [by] playing Beck songs when I was in elementary and junior high, so it was quite a trip to do that. It blew my mind to be his guitar player, sitting with Sea Change and learning Smokey's guitar parts. [It’s] just crazy. So that was really fun. And I got to tour the world for the first time, and then filled in a little bit with the Yeah Yeah Yeahs playing bass for a buddy, and then joined the Shins for a couple of years.
JOSH
That's quite an education.
JESSICA
Yeah. It's crazy. I feel like so much of my pedal education came from...just wanting to enter into those records and into that world. And Beck had so many crazy guitars and pedals.
JOSH
What was the process like coming in as someone to play a tour and record albums? What was that like for you? Like, what pedals did you have at that point?
JESSICA
I was pretty bare bones. At the time...I was only using an overdrive, a boost, and maybe a [two-in-one] fuzz/delay, and then an Electro Harmonix Holy Grail. Once I started playing with Beck, I really was listening for the right [sounds]. I picked up a Fox Fuzz, the Octave...That's one of my favorite pedals. I don’t have it on my board, ‘cause it's too big. But I started hearing more nuances in tones. [Beck] had some amazing blackface ’60s, ’70s amps, and he let me play his ’60s Jazzmaster. That was where I fell in love with Jazzmasters. And then [with] the Shins, James really let me do what I wanted to do. And he trusted me with recreating the sounds, and [I] got into choruses and different delays.
JOSH
So you're doing this, and then somewhere Deep Sea Divers starts. Tell us about that.
JESSICA
As a solo artist under my own name, in my early twenties, I was kind of ready to move away from that season of time. So I started going into the name Deep Sea Diver, and in 2009, 2010, I released an EP called the New Caves. And then shortly after that, Peter (who I'm married to and [who] plays the drums) and I made History Speaks, which was made in 2011 and came out in 2012, pretty much at the same time the Shins record came out. We actually ended up touring with the Shins, which was really sweet. But I was very divided, though. I wasn't able to tour nearly enough.
JOSH
You'll never have the “I don't have a drummer” problem.
JESSICA
That’s true. Yeah, yeah.
JOSH
Okay, absolute first pedal ever?
JESSICA
The Morley Wah Pedal. I saved up all of my allowance. It was 50 bucks and it was at this funny little store down the street, and I think it was 60, but he felt so bad for me because I'd come back to the store every time. And I was like, “I have $40.” He was like, “I'm sorry.” And then I finally got ten more [dollars] for mowing someone's lawn...It was probably because I was wanting to play Rage Against The Machine and stuff.
JOSH
Let's talk about your favorite pedals ever. Talk about, like, your house is burning and you'd grab these pedals.
JESSICA
So if my house was burning, I would grab my Memory Man. I used to have the older version, but I think it got lost in [my] Shins days...I would grab my Pleasure Trem 5000, because I have never heard another tremolo pedal like that. I like controlling it with my foot down here, but it has such a nice cutoff with the depth rolled all the way up and you can do triangle or square waves...that's a very extreme tremolo, but I like a lot of the effects that I had on Secrets.
JOSH
Is your reverb after the trem?
JESSICA
It's before it. The tremolo’s at the very end, so it's funny. It's cutting everything.
JOSH
What about these drives?
JESSICA
The [Sarno] Earth Drive. Nels Cline turned me on to this one and I really like it…[it’s] more of a transparent/driving chime. So it lets the guitar come through more. Whereas like the Brother, which I also love, is a little fuzzier and cooler. Then it has a fuzz [mode] on it that I like using. It's really versatile.
JOSH
I love your use of fuzz.
JESSICA
Thank you. I have your pedal on there, too...I'm a big fan of gated fuzzes...I don't do too many fuzzes that are more in the Smashing Pumpkins vein, which I do love.
JOSH
I heard you do this weird thing where your delay is routed before the overdrives.
JESSICA
Yeah, I do this thing where I turn like my Diamond Delay mix all the way up, so has this weird reverse effect. I was trying to recreate a part in Impossible Weight that we did in the studio where it was actually reversed. So yeah, you can kind of fake it when you put it [in that order]. I think I have compression on, too, [which is] kind of carrying that leg.
JOSH
That's a perfect example. People are always asking what order to put their pedals in. It's like, there's no right answer. Technically, delay after, but you doing it backwards produced the coolest sound.
JESSICA
The only way I can do that with this board is because I have this Looper Switcher, and it allows you to put pedals whichever way you want.
JOSH
So, talk to me about your guitar.
JESSICA
I was so excited. They contacted me a few months back, and I had never designed a guitar from the ground up. And this is already an existing model, but I had never gotten to choose color, pickups, bridge, all those things. And so I wanted to marry my Elvis Costello Jazzmaster and a Stratocaster. I wanted something that was light to kind of replace the Stratocaster, ‘cause the thing’s like 10 pounds. This is heavy. This [new guitar] is so light and amazing. I put El Rio humbuckers in it, which are actually pretty similar to single bilt Jazzmasters, and I added soapbox pickups. They have this chime to them in clarity and bell-like tone that a lot of humbuckers don't have.
JOSH
Guitar has been kind of like this like bro thing forever. It feels like it's just guys. Like, you go to NAMM, and it's just dudes. Lately, So, this last year, 2019 and 2018, there's been some really cool surveys done and more girls and women are buying guitars. Are you excited about this? Like, we're un-“bro”-ing guitar.
JESSICA
Yes. I am like such an advocate for that...I gave lessons to a lot of kids and a lot of them are younger girls who just want to play in bands and I just want to be as empowering as possible to any kid that wants to pick up a guitar or instrument. But, I'm all about demystifying the studio process, ‘cause that can be really intimidating to get into engineering as a female. And I just love geeking out with younger kids about just, yeah, don't be afraid to just like step in and be bold. Especially for females.
JOSH
What's some advice you have for young players? You have a really crazy story, a long road. Like what's your advice for jumping in and doing it?
JESSICA
Probably the biggest pieces of advice I can give is to not wait on anything. Like...a lot of people are just like, “How do I get a manager? How do I get a booking agent, a label?” Just don't think that way. Just make the music, and like nine out of ten times, the way someone discovers your music is not the way that you planned. So, just hold music really loosely, in a way, because it's such a malleable, subjective thing, anyways. Yeah. Do it ‘cause you love it. Have high expectations and goals and all those things, but also hold them loosely and see where it takes you.
JOSH
You have finished a record. I think it's out right now. Yeah. I think right now, because we're in the past. I don't know, but yeah. What was this like? I've heard it. Yeah, it's really good.
JESSICA
So, Impossible Weight, that's the name of the record. And the record, in the most beautiful and harrowing way, was an impossible weight to get through...I kind of fell apart two years ago where I wasn't sure I was going to keep making music in this form and under Deep Sea Diver. We had a lot of reconciling moments for myself and in the band and music started coming again in a really lovely, natural way. And there were things [in it] that I meant with my whole heart rather than forcing them, which I felt like I was [doing] for a long time.
Peter, he was the one that said, “I think you should produce this record.” And I honestly shrunk into a shell when he said that because I did not trust my instincts at the time. I was like, “Okay, I'll do it if I find a really awesome co-producer,” because I know my weaknesses, and I will spend forever in the studio and never finish something…Secrets was kind of a darker, more brooding experimental record [with] a lot of heavy guitars. And the rhythm section was not complex, but like a quilt, like a lot of patterns woven together. [With] this record, I knew that I wanted it to be not any less arty or weird, but like I wanted to sharpen the songwriting on it. I've just done bedroom recording for so long, but like I geek out about engineering and it was so fun to go in with such a strong vision of what I wanted and just still proud of [it]...These songs feel not stronger than secrets, but they feel green...They felt more alive. And you could take more breaths in them. They were written from a much more vulnerable place.
JOSH
Alright. Rapid fire. Sushi or burger?
JESSICA
Sushi.
JOSH:
Dogs or cats?
JESSICA
Dogs. I have a beagle…[but] I love cats. I love all that stuff except for reptiles.
JOSH
What's your favorite color?
JESSICA
Green.
JOSH
Backstreet Boys are NSync?
JESSICA
Backstreet Boys.
JOSH
Paul McCartney or John Lennon?
JESSICA
Oh my God. That's hard. Why are you doing this to me? Okay. Lennon.
JOSH
Walmart or Target?
JESSICA
Target.
JOSH
Seinfeld or Friends?
JESSICA
Seinfeld.
JOSH
Favorite salad dressing.
JESSICA
I love a great honey vinaigrette. Honey mustard.
JOSH
(obviously surprised) I try to predict people's answers--
JESSICA
Hmm. Did you think I was a ranch girl?
JOSH
I don't know. I thought maybe blue cheese...Okay, best concert you've ever been to?
JESSICA
I would say probably Radiohead. It was one of the first Coachellas when there were only probably 30,000 people there, [whereas] now it's like a million. I don't even know. I don't go.
JOSH
Who are your five favorite guitarists?
JESSICA
Robert Fripp, Jeff Tweedy, Nels Cline, Blixa from the Bad Seeds, and Johnny Mar.
Josh here again. Deep Sea Diver’s new album Impossible Weight has officially dropped. Cancel your plans. Leave your kids with a babysitter. Do whatever it takes to get a copy of this record, and listen to it, the whole thing, all the way through. You won’t regret it.
Thanks again to Jessica Dobson for taking the time to talk with us this week. We had a blast!